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 Post subject: How To Measure a vinyl?
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2004, 14:02 
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Since a few days I got a brand new turntable and I can finally listen to my little vinyl collection which includes quite a lot of Gathering LPs.

I've noticed that the 2nd vinyl [which has the same songs that the songs than the 2nd CD] seems to bring a lot more feelings than the CD version... I wanted to have the opinion of people who also have this vinyl not just as a collection item...
For me the songs get "rounder" like the bass is more purring like a cat and it really gives huge goose gumps :) It's like rediscovering the album again [at that time I had lsiten ed to that album exclusively for 3 months :green: am I mad?]

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PostPosted: 08 Sep 2004, 17:52 
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I once had the pleasure to listen to the vinyl version of HTMAP, which by the way is my fav TG album. The sound e.g. on Illuminating is astounding, superb...yet different! It is like listening to a remixed version of the album! It is a whole new experience! Just like (so I have heard) the vinyl version of Souvenirs, which I am waiting forward to listen in my personal stereo! :green:

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PostPosted: 08 Sep 2004, 19:58 
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Indeed sounds all more "alive" and you can also distingish a lot more the different layers [in htmap as in souvenirs]

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PostPosted: 09 Sep 2004, 09:12 
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I completly agree with u Burn, the Lp sound much better than the cd.
I think most of music (Except of black metal) sounds better on LP... If u have the chance , listens to any of the first 5 black Sabbath albums on vinyl...its an amazing experience
-->Gerardo

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PostPosted: 09 Sep 2004, 09:55 
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my vinyl collection is quite limited since I had no turntable yet...
But yesterday I've listen to the Number of the beast on vinyl... It was like back when I was 14 and I was getting those stuff from the 'library' :green:
Now I'll spend more on vinyl cause in most of the case, they're cheaper than CDs and you can find 2nd hand stuff witha very good sound still ;)

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PostPosted: 09 Sep 2004, 10:04 
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Abbath wrote:
... If u have the chance , listens to any of the first 5 black Sabbath albums on vinyl...its an amazing experience
-->Gerardo


Sabbath is great anyway you hear them. But, the Castle remasters let me hear things I've barely heard on my original albums.

---

I'm glad this thread was started because I've wondered about this little question. I'm of the elder TG fan base so I remember and have a large collection of vinyl. And I agree, sometimes vinyl has that certain something else.

The thing is... I can't understand how an analog recording of an original digital band recording is better? Unless TG records to analog tape first. Do they?

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Last edited by DARK1bc on 09 Sep 2004, 10:08, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 09 Sep 2004, 10:04 
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Speaking generally it depends on what gear you use.I listen sometimes to a 30.000 euro system-Wadia/Krell/JML Utopia than belongs to a good friend(He also has a killer turntable that costs many thousands).Listening TG cds there blows me away :o Actually The Gathering CDs sound really good especially HTMAP:(for a comparison all Anathema and Porcupine Tree cds sound poor except Coma Divine which is just average)
But vinyl will sound better because is a superior format:With vinyl you listen to music with CD you listen to the machine.As simple as that

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PostPosted: 09 Sep 2004, 10:19 
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Yeah, but what I was talling about was... If the band is analog then recorded digital then back to analog, there's a digitized degration of the original analog purity.

So, the answer to my question resides in "hans" hands I guess.

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PostPosted: 09 Sep 2004, 10:19 
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Rythm section is often recorded on tape and then digitalised in protools...
technically vinyl is a poorer format than CD. However, as you have less dynamic (for example) all the little detail in a CD appear with more level so you hear them better...
The thing I find weird is about the very high harmonic cause they're less present in a vynil so the sound could sound less clear.. but it never does... (or maybe I have fucked up ears already ;))

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PostPosted: 09 Sep 2004, 10:30 
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DARK1bc wrote:
Yeah, but what I was talling about was... If the band is analog then recorded digital then back to analog, there's a digitized degration of the original analog purity.

So, the answer to my question resides in "hans" hands I guess.

heh...a digital recording will still sound better on vinyl because is a superior format.

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PostPosted: 09 Sep 2004, 12:48 
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digital recordings sound colder than analog ones...
but for mixing you have more possibilities when you do it digitally
and then you can get teh mastering in anaolg again (that's what happened with htmpa, mastered in Abbey Road)

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PostPosted: 09 Sep 2004, 14:51 
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I have no fucken clue about audio thingies but I've got the same dilema.

If you record in digital format you are digitalising the original analog sound, so how can you enjoy the qualities of analog recordings in a vynil mastered from a digital source.

I mean:

Band playing -> analog equipment ----digitalized--> digital master--a processor (machine) reproducing digital file to analog wave -> vynil

In the digital master you already have got the sound digitalized (an artificial model of the original soundwaves) and then a machine plays it and you get an analog output. This output will never be true analog source, but an analog output of a digital source.

I mean you can't obtain the 'real' thing from a 'fake' thing, it will be just a machine sounding 'analog' but not the original wave sound, so how can you expect getting the same benefits? They have been already lost on the digitalizing process, it's illogic they appear again.

Evenmore if the recording process has been thought for a digital medium I suppose they would take care of making it the way it benefits digital mediums and I suppose this ways should be not the same it would be for analog recordings, so I suppose it's even worst cause you will lose the benefits from both mediums.

Or maybe it's that the machines used to convert the digital file to an analog wave are much more precise than our usual digital players and the analog result (vynil) is much more enjoyable in a good equipment than the original digital file (cd) on the same quality equipment.

Can anybody bring a logical answer without getting too deep into technical aspects?

Just confused. :-|

Thx.


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PostPosted: 09 Sep 2004, 15:30 
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I told it before:A digital recording on vinyl will sound better than the same recording on CD because vinyl is a superior playback medium:Its a better reproduction format.Actually the difference can be really big:For example i have Cds and vinyl from styff from Madonna(Ray Of Light) Bjork(Post) Depeche Mode(exciter) Massive(Mezzanine).All these are surelly digital recordings.These cds on the 4000$ Wadia CD player soung great,they are excellent recordings anyway.But when i listen to the vynil edition of the same album(on a hi-end turntable of course) it sounds sooo much better :o vinyl creates an electrifying atmosphere that the CD cannot much:despite the fact that these are digital recordings.Of course analog rec from the past will sound even better than the CD and the difference can be vast:

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PostPosted: 09 Sep 2004, 16:01 
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Mecano wrote:
because vinyl is a superior playback medium:Its a better reproduction format


That was clear enough before, but just stating vynil is superior doesn't brings any reason or logic. It's like saying an hamburger is better than a salad because is a superior food. :-?

Which are the caracteristics that defines superior?

and btw your previous argument about the vynil suposed superiority was:

Quote:
With vinyl you listen to music with CD you listen to the machine


then we get the same dilema, with a vinyl from a digital master aren't you listening to music from a machine?

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you are wrong or trying to discuss your point but your 'arguments' (if we can call'em like this) look senseless to me and then didn't clear up my dilema.

...and then you just make it look like a magic thing with 'arguments' like this:

Quote:
vinyl creates an electrifying atmosphere


:o

it makes me feel frightened of getting electrified while listening a vynil

I'm not any anti-CD or anti-vynil kind of guy... I'm just curios ffs :green: :flower:


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PostPosted: 09 Sep 2004, 16:31 
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Hehe...the problem is that you have no experience.You just have to listen familiar recordings both on vinyl and on CD on a Hi-End system.Thats all.I have that luxury because i have a friend who has a superb system.Hearing is believing
Quote:
Which are the caracteristics that defines superior?

it sounds better :wink:
Quote:
Quote:
With vinyl you listen to music with CD you listen to the machine

then we get the same dilema, with a vinyl from a digital master aren't you listening to music from a machine?

this quote was about 100% analog VS 100% digital


Quote:

vinyl creates an electrifying atmosphere

:o
thats my way of saying that with vinyl i just here more.Its more lifelike thats all.

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PostPosted: 09 Sep 2004, 16:54 
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Mecano wrote:
Hehe...the problem is that you have no experience.You just have to listen familiar recordings both on vinyl and on CD on a Hi-End system.Thats all.I have that luxury because i have a friend who has a superb system.Hearing is believing


No, I have no experience, and yes I believe you, but the thing is that I wanna know why and no, I don't need a reason to enjoy music, I'm just curious, that's a virtue of the human being.

Quote:
Quote:
Which are the caracteristics that defines superior?

it sounds better :wink:


So the reason a vynil sounds better is just that sounds better? :-?

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
With vinyl you listen to music with CD you listen to the machine

then we get the same dilema, with a vinyl from a digital master aren't you listening to music from a machine?

this quote was about 100% analog VS 100% digital


But that was the argument of the vynil superiority you brought me twice times. So again you are just stating facts (of your own but not mine experience) but not bringing any logic. I was asking for logic, I'm justs curious.

Quote:
Quote:

vinyl creates an electrifying atmosphere

:o
thats my way of saying that with vinyl i just here more.Its more lifelike thats all.


Now that looks clearer :wink: electrifying atmosphere sounded much dramatic but it didn't brought me too much information on how actually vinyl sound better.


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PostPosted: 09 Sep 2004, 17:20 
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Quote:
So the reason a vynil sounds better is just that sounds better?

vinyl is better because it sounds better.You just hear more:Basically what i m saying is that top analog gear sounds better than top CD gear.As for the reason,well CD is an flawed format:Its from the 80s when digital technology was at its infancy.

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PostPosted: 09 Sep 2004, 17:40 
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basicaly you're right mecano.. analog is natural while digtal requires more correction and all...
but you didn't say that a vinyl has also its drawbacks
for example you have less stereo effect, less dynamic, less frequencies...
Also you have more background "noise" in a vynil disc

I do prefer a good vinyl than a CD but I also heard vinyl that sounded so crap!!!

If you want to expand the time on each side of a vynil you have to lose in dynamic... Souvenirs could have fitted on a single vynil disc.. but then the quality wouldn't have been as goo as it it.. also the thickness of the disc is important... I saw some vynil that were bending when you would hold them horinzontally on one extremity only.. :roll:

In the end I think everyone has to make his/her own opinon... Just cause one hears different from an other.

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PostPosted: 09 Sep 2004, 19:18 
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Yes vinyl has its drawbacks too...but i accept them so that i can enjoy the good things :wink: And yes some vinyl sounds bad because the pressing is poor-its the same with CD:some CDs sound like junk.Actually many of todays cds sound bad :-|
Quote:
less stereo effect, less dynamic, less frequencies

don t be so sure :P You ll be amazed at the dynamics of a real high end turntable-at a cost unfortunately :-? Turntables are not mass produced and as a result they are more expensive than CDPs.
Some years ago i had a Sony ES cdplayer from the top line of Sony:it costed 600euros (at 1996).I had no turntable at the time:My Audiophile friend had a Pierre Lurne Romance turntable:
Image
that costs 1300 euros fitted with a cheap(100eyros) Dynavector cartridge.We decided to do a comparizon and he brought the Romance to my place.The turntable was so much better it wasn t even funny.The difference was vast :o And with only a cheap cartridge.

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PostPosted: 09 Sep 2004, 19:26 
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that's why the digital world came... cause it's far cheaper than an analog system... [for the same class fo quality I mean]
In the end, technology will retrun to analog cause analog system are quicker, no need for buffers and corrections...

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