Χεχε τι πήρε το μάτι μου...
HARRY_ANGEL wrote:
yphrxan palaioteroi epikoi dialogoi me basiko omilhth ton kwsta KJP gia to kalamaki kai alla tetoia 8emata, mporoume na ta broume?
Λοιπόν:
Parasight wrote:
Koita, gia th mpougatsa kai ta kalamakia oi a8hnaioi den 3eroun ti tous ginetai
KJP wrote:
Wpa, gia stasou.
Poio einai to provlhma me ta kalamakia;
H klassikh 8essalonikiwtikh dikaiologia einai me ena geloio eirwniko yfos:
"kalllamakiiii; giati, to roufaaaas;;;;".
Aporw dhladh.
Kalamaki einai mono auto pou roufame;;;;;;
Exeis akousta to glwssologiko fainomeno ths "polyshmias";
Kata to fainomeno auto polles ennoies mporoun na apodidontai me mia (thn idia) morfh.
Symfwna me to parapanw, kalamaki einai kai auto pou xrhsimopoioume gia thn posh ygrwn, kalamaki einai kai to kommati 3ylou sto opoio diapername kommatia kreatos.
8a mporouse kapoios na pi8anologhsei loipon oti kai oi dyo autes morfes kalamakiou phran to onoma tous apo to makrosteno sxhma tous, san mikroi syggeneis ths kalamias, h opoia exei to idio sxhma se megalyteres analogies.
H mhpws 8eleis na piasoume to epipono 8ema "santouits";
Kane mia ereyna gia kapoion kyrio John Montague tou Sandwitch kai moiraia 8a odhgh8eis sthn anakalypsh ths etymologias toy "santouits" (to opoio ginetai apokleistika kai mono me pswmi) pou erxetai se anti8esh me ta osa yposthrizoun oi voreioi.
Ola auta vevaia den apokleioun to gegonos oti h ka8e le3h exei se ka8e topo8esia thn xrhsh ths, vasei ths moiraias kai fysiologikhs shmasiologikhs epektashs pou ka8ista thn xrhsh or8h kai leitourgikh. To provlhma den einai ekei. To provlhma einai oti yparxoun polloi e3ypnakhdes (apo oles tis gwnies ths xwras) pou exoun ma8ei apo ton mpampa dikaiologies-patentes xwris na 3eroun to giati kai to pws.
Mac-T wrote:
Kwstas 8eos, alla edw ta emple3es.
KJP wrote:
Exeis akousta to glwssologiko fainomeno ths "polyshmias";
Kata to fainomeno auto polles ennoies mporoun na apodidontai me mia (thn idia) morfh.
Symfwna me to parapanw, kalamaki einai kai auto pou xrhsimopoioume gia thn posh ygrwn, kalamaki einai kai to kommati 3ylou sto opoio diapername kommatia kreatos.
8a mporouse kapoios na pi8anologhsei loipon oti kai oi dyo autes morfes kalamakiou phran to onoma tous apo to makrosteno sxhma tous, san mikroi syggeneis ths kalamias, h opoia exei to idio sxhma se megalyteres analogies.
To kalamaki pou roufame loipon, 3eka8ara basizetai sto "kalami", to opoio ws gnwston fytrwnei se diafores rematies, limnes klp. Kai to eipame kalamaki mia kai einai koufio, opws kai to kalami.
To a8hnaiko kalamaki pou ennoei to 3ylaki DEN exei auth th morfh. Den einai koufio apo mesa, ara oudemia sxesh den exei me kalami. Yparxoun bebaia alla kalamia, h kalamia ston kampo, to kalami psarematos klp. Dystyxws, kanena apo auta den exei koina stoixeia me to 3ylo to opoio diaperna to kreas. Xmmm, ti omws diaperna to kreas kai pshnetai olo mazi? That's right, h SOYBLA. ERGO, h mikrh ekdosh autou onomazetai soublaki...
KJP wrote:
H mhpws 8eleis na piasoume to epipono 8ema "santouits";
Kane mia ereyna gia kapoion kyrio John Montague tou Sandwitch kai moiraia 8a odhgh8eis sthn anakalypsh ths etymologias toy "santouits" (to opoio ginetai apokleistika kai mono me pswmi) pou erxetai se anti8esh me ta osa yposthrizoun oi voreioi.
Edw kamia antirrhsh. Ontws einai malakia na apokalei kaneis to gyro se pita "santouits". Oso malakia einai bebaia na ton apokalei kai "soublaki", etsi?
Epishs de 8a 3exasw oso zw kati a8hnaious pou eixa gnwrisei ena kalokairi sto xwrio pou yposthrizan oti "tost" legetai MONO o,ti ginetai me to gnwsto "pswmi gia tost" (Karamolegkos klp.), akomh ki an DEN EXEI PSH8EI!!!
Ena santouits se mpagketa anti8eta, akomh ki an eixe psh8ei DEN HTAN TOST!!! Kai dystyxws den pei8ontan oute me th metafrash ths le3hs "toast"...
Opws epishs kai to 8ema tou tyriou/kaseriou, gia to opoio se opoio boreio me MYALO na milhseis, paradexetai oti to leme la8os. Oi salonikioi dld, giati de nomizw na breis allous boreious apo merh pou fhmizontai gia thn poikilia tyriwn tous, na mhn 3eroun na 3exwrizoun ta diafora tyria...
KJP wrote:
Ola auta vevaia den apokleioun to gegonos oti h ka8e le3h exei se ka8e topo8esia thn xrhsh ths, vasei ths moiraias kai fysiologikhs shmasiologikhs epektashs pou ka8ista thn xrhsh or8h kai leitourgikh.
Eeetsi.
KJP wrote:
To provlhma den einai ekei. To provlhma einai oti yparxoun polloi e3ypnakhdes (apo oles tis gwnies ths xwras) pou exoun ma8ei apo ton mpampa dikaiologies-patentes xwris na 3eroun to giati kai to pws.
Epishs eeetsi. Bebaiws yparxoun kai oi logikes e3hghseis, tis opoies polloi kamia fora de 8eloun na akousoun
KJP wrote:
Kala kaneis kai milas.
Alliws einai monologos kai oxi syzhthsh.
Mac-T wrote:
To kalamaki pou roufame loipon, 3eka8ara basizetai sto "kalami", to opoio ws gnwston fytrwnei se diafores rematies, limnes klp. Kai to eipame kalamaki mia kai einai koufio, opws kai to kalami. To a8hnaiko kalamaki pou ennoei to 3ylaki DEN exei auth th morfh. Den einai koufio apo mesa, ara oudemia sxesh den exei me kalami. Yparxoun bebaia alla kalamia, h kalamia ston kampo, to kalami psarematos klp. Dystyxws, kanena apo auta den exei koina stoixeia me to 3ylo to opoio diaperna to kreas.
Kaneis la8os.
Kai me ta paradeigmata pou eferes anaireses monos sou thn apopsh pou e3efrases parapanw.
Auto akrivws einai to fainomeno ths polyshmias (
KANE CLICK EDW).
Den einai aparaithto na einai idies dyo ennoies oi opoies ekproswpountai apo thn idia apodosh.
Mhpws einai koufio to osto ths knhmhs kai to leme kalami;
Den einai, ki omws to leme. Kai einai swsto, logw sxhmatos.
"Kalami" den exei epikrathsei na leme otidhpote koufio, alla otidhpote makrosteno (pou mporei eniote na einai kai koufio).
Mac-T wrote:
Xmmm, ti omws diaperna to kreas kai pshnetai olo mazi? That's right, h SOYBLA. ERGO, h mikrh ekdosh autou onomazetai soublaki...
Edw symfwnw. Sthn A8hna kai oi dyo morfes legontai souvlakia: souvlaki kalamaki kai souvlaki gyros. Pi8anws epeidh kai o gyros pshnetai se souvla. Auto vevaia den shmainei oti kai to katsiki to Pasxa einai souvlaki, estw kai an einai souvlisto.
Prose3e.
Den yposthrizw oti oi men einai swstoi kai oi de einai la8os, estw kai an h arxikh shmasia orismenes fores xrhsimopoih8hke lan8asmena.
H shmasiologikh epektash ka8ista swsth opoiadhpote xrhsh le3hs. Trantaxto paradeigma h nea or8ografia ths le3hs "kainourios", h opoia 8ewrhtika einai pera gia pera lan8asmenh (anti tou "kainourgios" pou einai "kainos" + "ergo", ara den xanei to gamma) ki omws einai apodekth kai xrhsimopoieitai eyrews, sto shmeio pou h palaia (kai apodedeigmena or8oterh) grafh ths le3hs na 8ewreitai lan8asmenh.
To provlhma mou einai me ta atoma ta opoia oxi mono den mporoun apodextoun thn diaforetikothta, alla thn kathgoroun ws lan8asmenh kai anohth xwris na einai se 8esh na aitiologhsoun tis apopseis tous.
A, kai kati allo:
Vasei poiou prwtokollou einai swsto to ena alfa "ap' ola", enw einai la8os to allo bhta "ap' ola";;;;; Exei pshfistei mhpws kapoios nomos gia thn or8othta tou "ap' ola";
Mac-T wrote:
KJP wrote:
Den einai aparaithto na einai idies dyo ennoies oi opoies ekproswpountai apo thn idia apodosh.
Mhpws einai koufio to osto ths knhmhs kai to leme kalami;
Den einai, ki omws to leme. Kai einai swsto, logw sxhmatos.
"Kalami" den exei epikrathsei na leme otidhpote koufio, alla otidhpote makrosteno (pou mporei eniote na einai kai koufio).
Symfwnoi. Omws kai to kalami tou podiou, opws eipes, exei epikrathsei na legetai etsi, opws kai oloi oi alloi oroi gia tous opoious syzhtame (an kai texnika, to osto einai ontws koufio kai gemato medouli, an 8umamai kala thn an8rwpologia mou ). Etsi, den amfisbhtoume to pws xrhsimopoieitai se ka8e perioxh (opou einai kai to "swsto" gia tous ntopious).
KJP wrote:
Sthn A8hna kai oi dyo morfes legontai souvlakia: souvlaki kalamaki kai souvlaki gyros. Pi8anws epeidh kai o gyros pshnetai se souvla. Auto vevaia den shmainei oti kai to katsiki to Pasxa einai souvlaki, estw kai an einai souvlisto
Ontws. To katsiki to Pasxa (arni s'emas
) pshnetai sth soubla, gi'auto kai einai "arni (h katsiki) sth soubla". To soublaki, opws proeipa, einai h MIKRH soubla. O gyros sto paradeigma pou eferes, 8a eprepe na legetai "gyros sth soubla". To de kreas sto 3ylaki, sth mikrh soubla, 8a htan to "soublaki".
KJP wrote:
H shmasiologikh epektash ka8ista swsth opoiadhpote xrhsh le3hs
Edw symfwnw apolyta. Auto omws de shmainei oti mporei na ginetai kata koron. Den mporei dhladh na ka8ierwsoume na leme to aeroplano "ntalika" epeidh kapoia stigmh mas th barese pio wraia na to poume etsi. (Edw kollaei to "mpougatsa" issue
)
KJP wrote:
To provlhma mou einai me ta atoma ta opoia oxi mono den mporoun apodextoun thn diaforetikothta, alla thn kathgoroun ws lan8asmenh kai anohth xwris na einai se 8esh na aitiologhsoun tis apopseis tous.
Epishs symfwnw apolyta.
KJP wrote:
Vasei poiou prwtokollou einai swsto to ena alfa "ap' ola", enw einai la8os to allo bhta "ap' ola";;;;; Exei pshfistei mhpws kapoios nomos gia thn or8othta tou "ap' ola";
Basei tou Proedrikou Diatagmatos PD 346/1968, FEK B' 456, to "ap'ola" prosdiorizetai: "synodeia taxyfageiou geumatos 8a apoteloun ta e3hs: tomata, patates thganhtes, ketsap, moustarda, kremmydi. H de synodeia epidexetai opoiesdhpote metatropes h pros8hkes ina kalypsousi ta ekastote gousta tou meraklh faga."
Den to lew egw, kyries kai kyrioi, to leei o Proedros.
Pantws egw den eipa oti to ena "ap'ola" einai swsto kai to allo la8os. Apla e3efrasa th safh protimhsh mou sto boreio "ap'ola", to opoio briskw apeirws pio apolaustiko, eidika apo th stigmh pou mporei kaneis na pros8esei sto gyro/soublaki kai o,ti allo 8elei se styl ouggareza, tyrosalata, tyrokauterh, paprika, klp. klp. pragma to opoio kata ta fainomena de synh8izetai sthn A8hna.
Ptwxoi
KJP wrote:
Mac-T wrote:
(an kai texnika, to osto einai ontws koufio kai gemato medouli, an 8umamai kala thn an8rwpologia mou)
An 8eloume - pou 8eloume - na eimaste akrivologoi, tote prepei na prose3oume.
Allo "koufio" kai allo "spoggwdes".
Kai sthn periptwsh opou enas swlhnas einai koufios, prepei na diakrinoume thn pi8anothta na exei ena, 'h kai ta dyo stomia anoixta. H knhmh profanws den exei anoixta stomia (oute einai koufia, afou periexei osteodokides kai ton myelo twn ostwn), ara kai pali yparxei plhrhs asymvatothta me to kalamaki poshs, pera apo to e3wteriko sxhma.
Pragma poy apodyknyei to fainomeno pou den briskw logo na anaferw 3ana.
Pragma pou apodykneyei oti ta kalamia, ta kalamakia kai ola ta synafh exoun ka8e dikaiwna na legontai etsi asxetws diastasewn, systashs, xrwmatos, fylhs, 8rhskeias kai xrhsews.
Mac-T wrote:
Auto omws de shmainei oti mporei na ginetai kata koron. Den mporei dhladh na ka8ierwsoume na leme to aeroplano "ntalika" epeidh kapoia stigmh mas th barese pio wraia na to poume etsi.
Profanws.
H shmasiologikh epektash den symvainei en mia nykti, oute epeidh kapoios to apofasise. Einai fainomeno pou symvadizei me thn makroxronh e3eli3h ths glwssas. Apa3 kai synevh omws...
To 8ema ths mpougatsas einai poly aplo:
h mpougatsa DEN ka8orizetai apo to periexomeno, alla apo ton typo tou fyllou pou xrhsimopoieitai.
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