The Gathering

Who cares about what is big?

I care about what appeals me, just this.

Gracias.

What's 'big' is seldomly what's 'good'. It's usually a watered down (or more poppy) version of something really good.

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i knew someone would miss my point and pop up with the i-like-both-mainstream-and-underground-music-because-im-open-minded argument. my point is that, metallica was so good and so big back then, it was sort of strengthening the scene, leading the scene, by having high quality albums and gigs and songs and musicianship - forcing high quality standards onto the scene if i may say. and my point is : which band could do that now in the metal scene?

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INSECURE
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insecure people lack confidence and are uncertain about their own abilities and about whether other people really like them.

Blink 182, give Evanescence a few more years, Creed.

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Can't we all just get a bong?

My point is the i-don't-like-bands-who-sells-too-much-t-shirts

About the question I think is too early to decide and I haven't received the cristall ball yet.

About being influential I think that Slayer have been much more prolific at being influential than the tallicas itself (ask 99.9% of the death and black metal bands, everybody loves Slayer ).

I'm afraid Cerebus is more right than PHM, Duende or me like to admit.

Perhaps Linkin Park can be added to that (more so than Evanescence I think, we have to see).

Metallica might seem very innovative to our generation, earlier generations said their heroes (Maiden, Priest and before that Zeppelin, Purple) were much more influential than Metallica and Slayer.

np: Exodus - Tempo Of The Damned \m/

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Very well said. But I don't know about Linkin Park. The second album is pretty much the same as the first (judging on the singles of course ), so if these one-trick pony's can't come up with something new next time they'll be forgotten in 5 years. Metallica did have a large impact because they made it ok for people to like a metal band. They killed some metal clichés along the way too, with their society critical lyrics, stunning ballads and experimental instrumental songs.

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We trembled into the
world of dreams
The cradle of imagination...

but slayer owes a lot to metallica as everyone knows. dont get me wrong, im a big slayer fan but everyone knows how slayer got influenced by metallica.

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INSECURE
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insecure people lack confidence and are uncertain about their own abilities and about whether other people really like them.

wheres the musicianship in evanescence or linkin park tho? when metallica reached their artistic peak everyone was like 'wow!'. but im afraid only spotty clueless teenagers can be impressed by evanescence. i dont hate evanescences style, i just think theyre crap what theyre trying to do.

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INSECURE
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insecure people lack confidence and are uncertain about their own abilities and about whether other people really like them.

I reckon.

Does anyone think that the Tool/A Perfect Circle school might break through and achieve this?

I come from that older generation to say that, in my opinion, Zeppelin might have been more influential, but that's partly because when I first encountered the young Metallica I couldn't connect with what they were doing. That's about the time I stopped listening to "metal", until I came back to it in the late 1990s (the catalyst, oddly enough, being the soundtrack to The Matrix).

im afraid tool/apc are a bit too 'cool' to be considered as metal. ive always seen them as belonging to the cool indie rock scene. and to be honest ive never understood whats so good about these albums, but everyone says the new APC is better and different so i might check that one first.

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INSECURE
adjective
insecure people lack confidence and are uncertain about their own abilities and about whether other people really like them.

When we were 'spotty clueless teenagers' we were impressed by Metallica. It's all in the frame of reference. As you grow older that frame grows and you see things in a timeline. You tend to break down new things into its influences and perceive it as regressive while to a 15 year old Evanescence sounds very progressive. Older people might think 'nah, that's just a mix of gothic metal and nu metal', if you hadn't heard Korn (that sounded like some sort of Primus in pains to me when the first album came out) and were 8 when the doom/death and symphonic black metal out of which these 2 elements came forth, then it's new.

This 'musicianship' thing, I don't know, I guess that changed, like when the symphonic rock of the seventies was destroyed by punk. It just goes in waves.

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yeah but these days im not impressed by some of things i found impressive when i was a spotty clueless teenager anymore. im still impressed by things now and then, but deffo not by evanescence. put power chords on crap drum beats and a singer who sings the same 3 notes all the way, whats so impressive about that? i mean, beside the marketing?

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INSECURE
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insecure people lack confidence and are uncertain about their own abilities and about whether other people really like them.

Well, maybe it was just a coincidence that a metalband hit it in the mainstream. The current 'loud rock' section is filled with rockbands like Muse and Tool up to maybe even The Mars Volta. Those bands have the musicianship you're looking for, at least the energy is the same as Metallica and the grunge acts of the early nineties.

To me comparing Evanescence to Metallica's Black Album era seems not entirely right because Metallica had a long history that Evanescence obviously hasn't. Certainly no 'cred' in the underground like Metallica still had back then (and still has now although many (fiercely) refuse to admit they care).

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Excuse for my ignorance (and I'm not trying to dish anyone/band), but what is exactly so special about Evanescence? Apart from the cute looking singer?

Anyway, to get back on topic: the album I shouldn't have bought is Epica's The Phantom Agony. It totally lacks *any* emotion (to me). The singing is on key, but... I don't know, not breathing, not living, not powerful enough. Even the grunts seem dead (or are they supposed to ). The music is ok on some songs, but lacking any originality and they suffer from the "Within Temptation" effect; as soon as the singer starts, the music is put on easy mode auto pilot and pushed into the background. Oh, and the 'choir thing' is rather.. overdone, IMO.

Of course, feel free to disagree. But this album simply does nothing at all to me. And taking into account how much I like After Forever, I'm surprised.

The funny thing is, I don't have a clue how others feel about that album. Until a couple of weeks ago (when it was recommend in the 'what band would you recommend' thread) I didn't know of its existance, I didn't know of Epica's existance actually.

Lately I have not that problem of buying this that are not enough satisfying. First of all I can download most of the times and secondly I'm pretty old to know what shit it's potentially appealing to me at this time, next time I told it could change, but at least I have a few hints and what I like to found and not found in the music I enjoy. That gives me pretty good prespective on the possibilities of the band or album. Last thing is that actually I've got a lot of CDs I've previewed (read download and listen) and would love to have in my collection (read I would buy in the near future through the internet and directly to the artist if it is possible, sorry but I get tired of local stores not having the stuff I enjoy). So I'm afraid buying a dissapointing CD would be a hard task.

To find out bands that appeals me (as most of them could not be find on the stores) I use to abuse of the internet thing. Share thoughts with mates taste-alike, download songs, listen them for a time (not just listen and think wow! and the buy) and if the thing past the test of time it will be bought for sure. I also like to dig around band member tastes that I considere artistically sensitive and to dig through "scenes" or small labels (montreal-constellation, boston-hydrahead, sf-neurot_recordings, norway-jester_records/karmakosmetix) it's incredible the quantity of quality and appealing (to me) stuff that I can found this way.

Sure the internet have lot of bad things but it has opened me lot of doors to well hidden bands and that's just good enough.

Adapt and survive.

About Epica: well, apparently this is the music Mark Jansen really likes to make, so I suppose in AF he was 'held back' by his fellow bandmembers. That would explain the rather subtle difference between the two bands, and how you can like one but not the other. Perhaps AF was just the right mix: Epica now puts the choir and classical influence a bit over the top, whilst, judging on Exordium, AF *may* be drifting off towards an Iron Maiden like style, which I personally do not like very much (but naturally I fully understand there are those who do )

I find the lack of emotion viewpoint very understandable. IMHO Epica is more concerned about their image than their music. They seem quite desperate to portray a 'gothic' image and being recognised as similar to WT, and the worst example of this is the Phantom Agony video, with singer Simone Jansen in cliche dresses (with deliberate-accidental 'breast views') and in 'interesting' poses in torture equipment. (And the less said about the other bandmembers' ridiculous SM masks, the better... )

Having said all that, strangely enough perhaps, I still find the actual music of the Phantom Agony album quite enjoyable, probably just because I like the classical/choir metal combination, and liked that part of AF the best. But I would put it nowhere near the way in which I like TG albums...

Now, I just heard on the Dutch forum that Epica fans on the Epica forum are very sensitive towards the slightest hint of criticism on what they doubtlessly consider the best band ever, so maybe if I feel mean I will post something similar like this on that forum in the future...

Which is pretty much where my interest in the band ends.

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...die leipe necro flavor...